What are your thoughts regarding the non-Tesla charging stations that offer fast charging? From the little that I have read I have concerns that the public charging stations out there do not offer the robustness of the Tesla Supercharger network (ie too few and far between).
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Charging Network Concerns
- Thread starter Harley B
- Start date
This topic is brought up quite often and there are a lot of unknowns. I recommend checking out Plugshare (either the app or .com) and filtering out the Tesla chargers to give you a good idea of what available near you or along the route you may be traveling. Essentially there are areas that are well covered and there are areas that are lacking. With that being said, there are several companies that are rapidly expanding their charging networks so by the time the Rivians actually hit the market, the rapid charging network with be pretty large and growing.
Keep in mind that for daily driving, charging at home is what I do and what most will find sufficient. An hour or two each night (and we could actually skip a day or two) gives us plenty of juice for daily driving.
Keep in mind that for daily driving, charging at home is what I do and what most will find sufficient. An hour or two each night (and we could actually skip a day or two) gives us plenty of juice for daily driving.
Agree with PoorPilot. Between PlugShare and now A Better Route Planner having an Alpha version of the R1T and R1S with all three battery flavors, you will see that road-tripping in a Non-Tesla EV is not going to be that difficult. That is unless the end user is the difficult one because the charging network doesn't have a large "T" on it or have the word "Supercharger" on it somewhere. 90% of your charging will be done at home. Invest in a L2 that is capable of at least 40amps, if not just going straight to the max at 48 with either the ClipperCreek or WattZilla. Both of those are 11kW L2 chargers and both are within $50 of each other. I personally have the WattZilla WallWattz. I love it. It is smaller than a gallon of milk and has 25' of cable with a 6' 14-60R NEMA lead. For the record, I am not a Tesla hater. My brother had one until some clown pulled out in front of him...I was planning on getting one upon my return from the deployment I am on, but after seeing the R1T in person at NYIAS and talking to some of the folks, I was sold.
I've pointed out elsewhere that the truck or suv is but one segment of the transportation system we are contemplating buying. The other two are the fueling segment and the support segment. Elon Musk was smart enough to understand this and, initially at least, put a lot into these other two segments. His fueling segment is still great but his support segment is a bit lacking at this point. RJ Scaringe is also a bright guy and I am sure he is as concerned about the other two segments as well. The big difference between the Tesla System and the Rivian System is that the former is a general use transportation system which means that most users will be using it to get to and from work, the supermarket, the kids' school etc. and given that most charging will be done at home. Tesla users go on longer trips, of course, and hence the SC network.
The Rivian system, by contrast, is intended to be one in which the user goes to remote places, though, of course, there will be lots of taking the kids to scholl done with it too. Thus the Rivian fueling segment is even more important than is Teslas.
I guess the ultimate reflection is that the Tesla community got by when the Tesla SC's were few and far between and so the Rivian community will doubtless be able to do so too. Kona drivers and Leaf drivers get around. Tesla owners drive out the Gaspe and around the Maritimes where there are no Tesla SC's.
The number of Other SCs actually exceeds the number of Tesla SC's and it is expanding. But it does not seem to be expanding as logically as the Tesla system. For the Rivian user that's not necessarily a bad thing as, presumably, Rivian drivers will venture into the less traveled places than Tesla and Leaf drivers.
Most of the existing stations seem to be able to accommodate only one car at a time. In many places that's not a problem. There isn't, apparently, huge demand for the EVGo charger in Bennington, VT nor for the CircuitElectrique one in Stornoway, QC. The newer ones (EA) are located in more populated places and seem to have more stalls so this problem is improving where it counts. Reliability and availability are concerns. The current "network" isn't really a network in that there are multiple operators and in some cases the operator is the gas station or convenience store that installs the station. So lots of "didn't work" or "wouldn't charge until I got the company on the line after holding for 20 minutes" stories are to be found on plug share. But they seem to be fewer than previously. The EA network is, of course, a network but I have seen reports of people arriving at a station with 10 stalls and seven of them are out of service. So let's keep in mind that EA is a new network. We'll hope that the bugs get worked out but that is no guarantee that they will.
The rates charged by the Other suppliers seem, to a Tesla owner, outrageous often amounting to $0.50 kW/h or thereabout. I understand that this may look like a good deal to a California or Hawaii resident but are a shock to much of the rest of the country. At such rates the cost of "fuel" in little or no better than the cost of fuel for an ICE vehicle.
I'm a Tesla owner and am, as such, spoiled. As I noted earlier, there are lots of other EV's on the road and there owners get by somehow. Someone who has just taken delivery on an RIT or RIA is no worse off than someone who has just taken delivery on a Jaguar iPace or a Hyundai Kona. To get an idea of what such folk deal with search for road trip reports for a vehicle type (e.g. https://insideevs.com/news/355375/video-hyundai-kona-electric-us-road-trip/ and
). Doesn't look that bad from these. And it looks as if the first of these is where I got the 7 out of 10 report.
All such concerns go away on the day Scaringe and Musk sign an agreement to let Rivian owners use the Tesla network but don't hold your breath on that.
The Rivian system, by contrast, is intended to be one in which the user goes to remote places, though, of course, there will be lots of taking the kids to scholl done with it too. Thus the Rivian fueling segment is even more important than is Teslas.
I guess the ultimate reflection is that the Tesla community got by when the Tesla SC's were few and far between and so the Rivian community will doubtless be able to do so too. Kona drivers and Leaf drivers get around. Tesla owners drive out the Gaspe and around the Maritimes where there are no Tesla SC's.
The number of Other SCs actually exceeds the number of Tesla SC's and it is expanding. But it does not seem to be expanding as logically as the Tesla system. For the Rivian user that's not necessarily a bad thing as, presumably, Rivian drivers will venture into the less traveled places than Tesla and Leaf drivers.
Most of the existing stations seem to be able to accommodate only one car at a time. In many places that's not a problem. There isn't, apparently, huge demand for the EVGo charger in Bennington, VT nor for the CircuitElectrique one in Stornoway, QC. The newer ones (EA) are located in more populated places and seem to have more stalls so this problem is improving where it counts. Reliability and availability are concerns. The current "network" isn't really a network in that there are multiple operators and in some cases the operator is the gas station or convenience store that installs the station. So lots of "didn't work" or "wouldn't charge until I got the company on the line after holding for 20 minutes" stories are to be found on plug share. But they seem to be fewer than previously. The EA network is, of course, a network but I have seen reports of people arriving at a station with 10 stalls and seven of them are out of service. So let's keep in mind that EA is a new network. We'll hope that the bugs get worked out but that is no guarantee that they will.
The rates charged by the Other suppliers seem, to a Tesla owner, outrageous often amounting to $0.50 kW/h or thereabout. I understand that this may look like a good deal to a California or Hawaii resident but are a shock to much of the rest of the country. At such rates the cost of "fuel" in little or no better than the cost of fuel for an ICE vehicle.
I'm a Tesla owner and am, as such, spoiled. As I noted earlier, there are lots of other EV's on the road and there owners get by somehow. Someone who has just taken delivery on an RIT or RIA is no worse off than someone who has just taken delivery on a Jaguar iPace or a Hyundai Kona. To get an idea of what such folk deal with search for road trip reports for a vehicle type (e.g. https://insideevs.com/news/355375/video-hyundai-kona-electric-us-road-trip/ and
All such concerns go away on the day Scaringe and Musk sign an agreement to let Rivian owners use the Tesla network but don't hold your breath on that.
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As PoorPilot mentioned there are a lot of unknowns. The charging station front is like the wild, wild west right now with very little predictability especially when we look out over a year from now and even more so on how a Rivian EAV will factor in.
I've read posts from Tesla owners stating they are against sharing the Tesla SCs with non-Tesla EV. It appears mainly due to since there are so many more Teslas on the road today that the Tesla SCs have become crowded to the point the frequency of no available charges has increased either leaving them to long periods of waiting or having to find another SC or worse stranding them. Now, I don't know how prevalent that is and I suspect it may be localized but I can easily see that happening ... and I wouldn't be happy camper either. But that's not to say I'm not in favor of hoping any EV can you use any fast charger out there including Teslas. It's just going to take time until more fast chargers are built to support the growing number of EVs on the road. It's not like, say, Shell, only allows certain ICE vehicles to fill up with their gas.
Ideally I would like to see more FC charging stations being built in or by existing gas stations like what BP Amoco, Shell and others are starting to do. These locations are already well documented not only via internet/smartphone, but also via signs you find along the highway. People are already familiar in locating gas stations so why not leverage that more. Added benefit - you have access to all the amenities you find today at a gas station - squeegee, window cleaner, paper-towels, bathrooms, mini-mart, etc. ... At the risk of drifting more off-topic, the majority of standalone charging stations today present to me almost a lower-class vehicle owner feel when you compare them to the amenities you find at a gas stations. E.g. most gas stations today have a canopy over the pumps giving you protection from the rain. Sorry EV user - if it's raining, too bad - get out of your car, stand in the rain while you stand on wet ground and get wet and go through all the required motions of starting a charging session for your EV. Yes, yes, I know EVs only account for 2 or so percent of vehicles on the road today but clearly that number is rising. At some point I hope EV owners start speaking up. As more and more of these charging stations get built and we have choices as to which one we go to, and one has nothing but the charging hook up while another offers some amenities, which one do you think is going to get more business? <end soap box>
I would say that reflection is through rose colored glasses.
If the "Rivian fueling segment is even more important than Teslas" then I don't see how you can equate that Rivian owners should be able to get by if the Tesla owners were able to. As you also point out the intended EV uses differ, so equating the two IMO is like comparing apples to oranges. A common comparison mistake I see done repeatedly especially with Rivian R1T to Tesla's vaporware "cyber-punk" pickup truck to that of Ford, RAM, Atlis and others. Different target audiences/segments that have quite different vehicle use cases.
How Rivian addresses the "fueling segment", beyond using CSS, is anybody's guess at this time. We need more data/info from Rivian. Until then you get more conjecture and ramblings like my post.
I've read posts from Tesla owners stating they are against sharing the Tesla SCs with non-Tesla EV. It appears mainly due to since there are so many more Teslas on the road today that the Tesla SCs have become crowded to the point the frequency of no available charges has increased either leaving them to long periods of waiting or having to find another SC or worse stranding them. Now, I don't know how prevalent that is and I suspect it may be localized but I can easily see that happening ... and I wouldn't be happy camper either. But that's not to say I'm not in favor of hoping any EV can you use any fast charger out there including Teslas. It's just going to take time until more fast chargers are built to support the growing number of EVs on the road. It's not like, say, Shell, only allows certain ICE vehicles to fill up with their gas.
Ideally I would like to see more FC charging stations being built in or by existing gas stations like what BP Amoco, Shell and others are starting to do. These locations are already well documented not only via internet/smartphone, but also via signs you find along the highway. People are already familiar in locating gas stations so why not leverage that more. Added benefit - you have access to all the amenities you find today at a gas station - squeegee, window cleaner, paper-towels, bathrooms, mini-mart, etc. ... At the risk of drifting more off-topic, the majority of standalone charging stations today present to me almost a lower-class vehicle owner feel when you compare them to the amenities you find at a gas stations. E.g. most gas stations today have a canopy over the pumps giving you protection from the rain. Sorry EV user - if it's raining, too bad - get out of your car, stand in the rain while you stand on wet ground and get wet and go through all the required motions of starting a charging session for your EV. Yes, yes, I know EVs only account for 2 or so percent of vehicles on the road today but clearly that number is rising. At some point I hope EV owners start speaking up. As more and more of these charging stations get built and we have choices as to which one we go to, and one has nothing but the charging hook up while another offers some amenities, which one do you think is going to get more business? <end soap box>
I would say that reflection is through rose colored glasses.
If the "Rivian fueling segment is even more important than Teslas" then I don't see how you can equate that Rivian owners should be able to get by if the Tesla owners were able to. As you also point out the intended EV uses differ, so equating the two IMO is like comparing apples to oranges. A common comparison mistake I see done repeatedly especially with Rivian R1T to Tesla's vaporware "cyber-punk" pickup truck to that of Ford, RAM, Atlis and others. Different target audiences/segments that have quite different vehicle use cases. How Rivian addresses the "fueling segment", beyond using CSS, is anybody's guess at this time. We need more data/info from Rivian. Until then you get more conjecture and ramblings like my post.
Suppose the deal was that Rivian supported the Tesla network to the extent of the number of Rivian's that used it. E.G. were 0.5% of vehicles using the SC's Rivians then Rivian would contribute 0.5% to the SC expansion fund. I (a Tesla owner) would have no objection to that (perhaps because I'm contemplating owning a Rivian) because the more Rivians that came onto the market the more SC's there would be. I expect, however, that there would be a fair amount of grumbling about allowing "them" to use "our" network. That's just human nature.
Yes, I'm trying to be optimistic. At first I was of the impression that there is NO charging infrastructure except Tesla's but that impression is fading fast as I putter around parts of Quebec that don't have any SC's. The competing networks' stations are becoming more numerous and they seem to be more reliable (though there are still problems reported fairly frequently) than they used to be even a few month's ago.
What I meant by the comparison with Tesla was that at first Tesla drivers got by with common household outlets (125V) and washing machine and range (welder) outlets (240V) and a Rivian owner will be able to do the same. That's at home. On the road a Tesla owner in the early days had to find one of those outlets and they were out there at, motels, camp grounds, trailer parks and elsewhere. Finding them was certainly less convenient that just saying "Navigate to nearest supercharger" while sitting in the car and being directed there but, as I said, they got by.
Things are actually much better than that for the prospective Rivian owner. today. When it became apparent that EV's were a real part of their customer bases motels, restaurants etc. began to install these higher current outlets to attract custom and they are still there and in growing numbers. Tesla, in its wisdom, began a program in which they gave destination chargers to businesses and paid for their installation. Those aren't available to other than Tesla drivers at the moment but if Rivian is smart, they will embark upon a similar program. There are networks of J1772 stations out there some privately owned and some publicly. With a proper adapter a Rivian owner should be able to charge at any RV park or camp ground that has plug-ins and those, of course, are in places someone who uses the RiT in the way it has been advertised is likely to go.
What I'd encourage you to do is play around with PlugShare in a region you might be interested in visiting. I chose Anticosti island (in the mouth of the Saint Lawrence) because thats a tough one (but I understand the deer hunting is great). PlugShare lists no chargers of any kind on Anticosti Island. But could you charge and R1T there. Yes. All you need to do is find some one willing to let you plug it in. If people start bringing EVs to Anticosti Island the businesses there will start installing chargers or at least high current (14-50R) outlets to encourage traffic (if that's what they want - the place is apparently run by a handful of outfitters that might not at all want this kind of competition). If you look at, for example, Newfoundland, you will see that most of chargers are at businesses of one kind or another. It's going to take a while for the level 3 networks to get to these more remote locations but they are coming. Quebec is on a big EV push right now.
The catch here is, of course, that I am largely talking level 2 charging and with the huge battery in an R1T that is going to be a pain. Yes, there are going to be some headaches with respect to charging the Rivian out in the boonies but as first adopters we have agreed to accept some headaches. I really do think it's not as bad as I originally thought and it's getting better.
Yes, I'm trying to be optimistic. At first I was of the impression that there is NO charging infrastructure except Tesla's but that impression is fading fast as I putter around parts of Quebec that don't have any SC's. The competing networks' stations are becoming more numerous and they seem to be more reliable (though there are still problems reported fairly frequently) than they used to be even a few month's ago.
What I meant by the comparison with Tesla was that at first Tesla drivers got by with common household outlets (125V) and washing machine and range (welder) outlets (240V) and a Rivian owner will be able to do the same. That's at home. On the road a Tesla owner in the early days had to find one of those outlets and they were out there at, motels, camp grounds, trailer parks and elsewhere. Finding them was certainly less convenient that just saying "Navigate to nearest supercharger" while sitting in the car and being directed there but, as I said, they got by.
Things are actually much better than that for the prospective Rivian owner. today. When it became apparent that EV's were a real part of their customer bases motels, restaurants etc. began to install these higher current outlets to attract custom and they are still there and in growing numbers. Tesla, in its wisdom, began a program in which they gave destination chargers to businesses and paid for their installation. Those aren't available to other than Tesla drivers at the moment but if Rivian is smart, they will embark upon a similar program. There are networks of J1772 stations out there some privately owned and some publicly. With a proper adapter a Rivian owner should be able to charge at any RV park or camp ground that has plug-ins and those, of course, are in places someone who uses the RiT in the way it has been advertised is likely to go.
What I'd encourage you to do is play around with PlugShare in a region you might be interested in visiting. I chose Anticosti island (in the mouth of the Saint Lawrence) because thats a tough one (but I understand the deer hunting is great). PlugShare lists no chargers of any kind on Anticosti Island. But could you charge and R1T there. Yes. All you need to do is find some one willing to let you plug it in. If people start bringing EVs to Anticosti Island the businesses there will start installing chargers or at least high current (14-50R) outlets to encourage traffic (if that's what they want - the place is apparently run by a handful of outfitters that might not at all want this kind of competition). If you look at, for example, Newfoundland, you will see that most of chargers are at businesses of one kind or another. It's going to take a while for the level 3 networks to get to these more remote locations but they are coming. Quebec is on a big EV push right now.
The catch here is, of course, that I am largely talking level 2 charging and with the huge battery in an R1T that is going to be a pain. Yes, there are going to be some headaches with respect to charging the Rivian out in the boonies but as first adopters we have agreed to accept some headaches. I really do think it's not as bad as I originally thought and it's getting better.
